Monday, February 06, 2006



Let’s get this out into the open, before I go any further:

  1. Am most assuredly NOT Muslim, nor will I ever be, and

  2. Am most assuredly NOT in favor of the recent riots in Europe over a bunch of stupid cartoons, and

  3. Am not a Muslim apologist of any sort.
So for those of you who attempt to infer any of the above, I politely offer you both of my middle fingers, and obsequiously ask that you go piss up a rope.

I’m not providing a link to the cartoons, or any of the other items proffered in this post. I’m in a foul mood today, and will leave it to the gentle readers to do their own research, and prove me wrong.

There are apparently riots going on in Europe, over the Danish press releasing some cartoons ridiculing the Islamic faith. Embassies have been burned, 1 fatality (as of this writing, that I’m aware of).

Should Muslims be angry? Hey, people is people: we get teed off at the stupidest things. Can’t tell people how to respond. Protesting? Sure. Rioting? No. Of course, coming from a culture where the only way to get a point across is by violent riots doesn’t help.

No excuses offered, none accepted. While we can’t IMPOSE our mindset on them, it’s only sense that it works both ways. Or, ‘When in Rome’, etc.

The ‘toons were somewhat tame, in comparison to what I’ve seen here in the States. Reflective of what the world sees them as.

What’s really got up my nose is that I was so WRONG.

About Islam, that is.

After some verbal squabbles with my fellow atheists (some of them actually suggesting we EVICT as many Muslims from America as is legally possible), I went to the Evangelical Atheist (who is one of my other favorite blogs), started reading through his ‘God is a Dick’ series (a more recent one, on the Koran). Started applying my own standards to the ongoing debate about the issue (by LOOKING IT UP).

And found out that many of us (I mean citizens, not just atheists) are indeed Cherry-Picking sections out of the Koran to bolster our misconceptions.

I absolutely LOATHE being wrong.  All this time, I’d been taking the word of other people: Muslims are violent, they’re dangerous, blahdeblahdeblahdeblah.

Everyone’s dangerous. Religious or not.

Here’s some of the more commonly quoted ‘proofs’ of  how violent Muslims are:

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

Here’s the following passage.

YUSUFALI: They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

So I looked at the passages surrounding the misquoted passages.
Now, it’s been pointed out to me, that if I lived in a Muslim country, under shari’a, I would be subject to dhimmi, and as I’m an atheist, the more extreme members of said country could (probably legally) separate my head from my neck.

Well, lucky for me, I don’t live in any such country. So such an observation is relatively worthless to the subject at hand.

Last I checked, invasion wasn’t on the checklist. Sure, utter and complete destruction of the invader. If we withdraw from the region, hey, that might change. One can only hope.

No, merely speculating, lest you pounce. So breathe deep, and relax. Chances are slim to none. Or, as Tom Tomorrow said (in a cartoon I cannot find, so I think it was he): “’Cause SUVs don’t run on Kim Chee, baby!”

So, by looking at passages from their own holy book, it becomes apparent, that Muslims are NOT required to savage anyone not of their ilk.

From the passage at answers.com – dhimmi:
“Bernard Lewis comments:
Two stereotypes dominate most of what has been written on tolerance and intolerance in the Islamic world. The first depicts a fanatical warrior, an Arab horseman riding out of the desert with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other, offering his victims the choice between the two. This picture […] is not only false but also impossible […]. The other image, almost equally preposterous, is that of an interfaith, interracial utopia, in which men and women belonging to different races, professing different creeds, lived side by side in a golden age of unbroken harmony, enjoying equality of rights and of opportunities, and toiling together for the advancement of civilization. Both images are of course wildly distorted; yet both contain, as stereotypes often do, some elements of truth. Two features they have in common are that they are relatively recent, and that they are of Western and not Islamic origin.
It is only very recently that some defenders of Islam began to assert that their society in the past accorded equal status to non-Muslims. No such claim is made by spokesman for resurgent Islam, and historically there is no doubt that they are right. Traditional Islamic societies neither accorded such equality nor pretended that they were so do”
The reader is invited to read the entire entry (yeah, I know, said I wasn’t going to post sources, but I’m getting soft in me old age – yeesh!)

There seems to be a wide divergence amongst Islamic nations, in re: to these laws. So it’s not completely “DIE INFIDEL!” nor is it Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm.

What a surprise. We’ve been misinformed. I will take this even a step further.

Went to WorldNet Daily - the article was off the blogroll at the NGB - when this caught my eye:
"There were peaceful rallies against the cartoons in Iraq where hundreds demanded an apology from the European Union."
I'm having some seriously deep thoughts (no wise cracks! ain't the 1st time) about this.
People used to piss on the Irish, now that's not allowed.
People mistreated women. Now that's not allowed.
People mistreated blacks. Now that's not allowed (at least in most places, not all).
In retrospect, there were the Watts & L.A riots. Underprivileged classes going berserk at mistreatment.
Again, not condoning the behavior (& getting sick of having to qualify that every FUCKING time).
So, 1st off:
What're we gonna do, when the last scapegoat is gone?
2nd off:
We've seen a prevalent attitude (I blame Wilson mostly, but not for all of it), inasmuch as we always seem to need an 'Evil Empire'  (At least in the 20th century). Going into the 21st.
So, reality check for all of those who've swallowed this 'us vs. them' garbage':
This is pap & propaganda. Yep, the people in the ME hate us. Sure. If I used your backyard as a bathroom, & told you to go suck a rope when you complained about the smell, you'd be surely justified in being a little irate, wouldn't ya?
So get off the neo-con bandwagon, those of you stumping for eviction, and/or elimination, and/or isolation, & SMELL THE ROSES.
We need to start listening BEFORE the body count rises. Or is added to.

And let’s get this out into the open, shall we?

I do love this country. It’s a wonderful country. But we’ve got unpaid debts, to a whole LOT of folks, apologies to be made, problems to be amended.

So we need to get off this high horse we’ve mounted our national identity on, and start behaving as if we live in this world, NOT JUST AMERICA.

Because we put it in writing: “ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.”

No escape clause. No loopholes. Let’s live by our principles, people. Even if it’s inconvenient. Even if it hurts. Even if there’s a touch of fear mixed in.

Because, if you walk in fear, or in anger, you’ll always be a target. Whether you’re an individual, or a nation.

And that’s my nickel’s worth. Spend it wisely, and well.

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udonman said...

ra congrats on getting on the no god blog blogroll even if you did prod a little to get there lol

any way as long as hairless and others are safe from thes muslims let them riot if they cant open there eyes to the fact that there shit is shit thats there problem

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

HairlessMonkeyDK here... A dane no less!
Here's what the supposedly heinous cartoon depicted:
Muhammed with a grenade for a turban.
And this makes multitudes run amok?
Get a life, AND A GODDAMN SENSE OF HUMOR, Mr. Multitude.
Reluctant, it's not that I'm really disagreeing with your post, because you're right, absolutely right. But only on the THEORY of the subject.
Look, what is and isn't in the Koran, or what is and isn't in the Bible makes, PARADOXICALY, little difference to people of either (or other) faiths.
They will do as they're inflamed to do by their preachers, wether it's bombing abortion clinics in the U.S. or attacking Danish embassies in islamic countries.
This is a case of not only shouldn't you judge a book by its cover, the contents won't matter much either. It is salivating dumbassery spurred on by factions eager to retain the power they've already managed to manipulate themselves into.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Get a life, AND A GODDAMN SENSE OF HUMOR, Mr. Multitude.
Really, you of all folks should KNOW I do have a very good sense of humor.
Everyone's got a life. It's what you do with it that counts.
& I agree w/everything you say (except that SENSE OF HUMOR thingamabob).
I wrote this in hopes that my meagre efforts will forestall some miniscule portion of demonizing a demographich we know so little about.
I have a sense of humor.
I'm afraid my sense of empathy has grown somewhat, lo these past few months.

Doctor Marco said...

As I said in other comments related to the subject, I believe that there is people interested in widening the existing rift between the Western world and Islam. Those people have found the perfect excuse to inflame the common Islamic people.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Dr. Marco:
Oh, there is no doubt that Islam is the other 'Evil Empire'.
Who is in line next as scapegoat, I wonder?

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

Reluctant... please.
Would you reread my comment and get it right?
It wasn't YOU I was asking to get a sense of humor, but those people who've gone apeshit over a cartoon.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Sorry, thought you were calling me Mr. Multitude.
Been cross-eyed last coupla days, what w/my recent tussles w/Mr. WrightWing.

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

"Sorry, thought you were calling me Mr. Multitude"

Yeah... ain't that a sort of inverse Walt Whitman quote?

Future Geek said...

Great insight on this issue, and an insightful blog. Keep writing. I'm linking to your blog.

Krystalline Apostate said...

future geek:
Well, thanks.
I was afraid that I was tilting at windmills quixotically.
Much obliged.

Rosemary said...


Totally off topic:

On the NGB, I forget which day, you mentioned the Happaran civilization. I looked it up on the 'net...nada. Checked my old Britianica...still nada.

I would appreciate if you would give me some info on this civilization. One of my interests is ancient history.

Future Geek said...


Krystalline Apostate said...

Thanks, future geek!
(don't that sound like something out of a DC comic book, ;)).
I misspelled a word!
I shall promptly & forthwith toss myself from the nearest tall building!

Rosemary said...


Glad you're kidding. I would surely have missed you.

Thanks, Future Geek. I checked out the link. Mind blowing! Predates Sumer by 3000 yrs! I'll look into it further.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Ramen love ya, dear.
Apparently, you keep me honest.
I rarely misspell things on purpose. 1 of my bugaboos bit me in the posterior, apparently.
Nothing a little neosporin won't take care of.

Rosemary said...


Not my mission to keep anyone else except myself honest. I am convinced that no adult has the right to tell another adult what he/she should or should not or ought or ought not to do. That works very well in my relationships with my grown children.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Not my mission to keep anyone else except myself honest.
I was referring to my misspell of the word 'Harrappan', dear. & the misuse of the word 'intaglio'.
My pardon.

Rosemary said...

Oh, dear! Now I have to make a correction. I got a little too enthusiastic about a cursory reading of the first Harappan link I found. Further research indicates that Sumer and Harappa were more or less contemporary not separated by 3000 years.

But, thanks RA for the referance and Future Geek for the link. I'm having a wonderful time learning something new!

Krystalline Apostate said...

There's some evidence that the Harrappans settled the area around approx. 6000 BCE.
"This tradition has been traced back to pre-6000 BCE in remains uncovered in Mehrgarh and other sites. It reached its flowering from 2600-1800 BCE, called the Harappan age, when several cities and towns were established and writing used. The Indus empire covered the entirely of northwest India with outposts as far south as Sri Lanka and the Maldive Islands. It continued in a state of decline to 1000 BCE and perhaps later."
Little further down: "Out in the dry-cracked earth of the Sind desert region of India/Pakistan, the 6,000-years-old remains of one of two great Indus Valley cities spread out like the bones of an extinct dinosaur. This metropolis is now called Harappa. We don't know what its 1000,000 citizens - the earliest known Hindus - called it."
Turns out archeology was suppressed in re: to this because of, as the article quotes,
"...straightjacketed by the biblical chronology fitted on Indian history by 19th century European scholars. "

Rosemary said...

OK...I came across the 6000 date in one reference. But, then in other articles the focus was on the "flowering" of the civilization at later dates that varied somewhat depending on who was writing. One article suggested that Harappa had engaged in trade with Sumer.

I kept wondering why this civilization had escaped my knowing anything about it. But, the explaination of suppression tells all.

Anyway, I am really excited about learning about Harappa. I wish someone could translate Harappan writing.

Krystalline Apostate said...

A lot of the evidence is still sporadic, as Harappa was found in 2005.
More will be forthcoming, I'm sure. There are indicators that Harappa traded w/Sumer.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Was wading thru my old bookmarks, found this little treasure:
"As was announced on January 16, 2002 from New Delhi, Indian scientists have made an archaeological discovery that dates back to 7500 bce. This suggests, as a top government official said, that the world's oldest cities came up about 4,000 years earlier than is currently believed. The scientists found pieces of wood, remains of pots, fossil bones and what appeared like construction material just off the coast of Surat, Science and Technology Minister Murli Manohar Joshi told a news conference. He said, "Some of these artifacts recovered by the National Institute of Ocean Technology from the site, such as the log of wood date back to 7500 bce, which is indicative of a very ancient culture in the present Gulf of Cambay, that got submerged subsequently." Current belief is that the first cities appeared around 3500 bce in the valley of Sumer, where Iraq now stands, a statement issued by the government said. "We can safely say from the antiquities and the acoustic images of the geometric structures that there was human activity in the region more than 9,500 years ago (7500 BC)," said S.N. Rajguru, an independent archaeologist.
More details were released at-- http://www.timesofindia.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=2140338028"
Good reading!