left biblioblography: IT’S CURMUDGEON TIME: THINGS THAT REALLY GET SO FAR UP MY NOSE, IT STINGS MY HYPOTHALAMUS

Tuesday, July 11, 2006

IT’S CURMUDGEON TIME: THINGS THAT REALLY GET SO FAR UP MY NOSE, IT STINGS MY HYPOTHALAMUS


One of my biggest peeves is that xtians seem to believe they’re so ‘persecuted’. Maybe in other countries: sure as hell not in this one. All us nasty ole atheists want to take their ‘stuff’ away. You know, like the right to shove their beliefs down our throats, take away fundamental freedoms like what we can do with our own bodies, dictate the terms of how we live our lives, that sort of thing. Or the fact that we object to them being in charge. Or that we don’t appreciate being told we’re amoral cowards, religious zealots, being equated with communists, unpatriotic, being members of the ‘losers club’, all that folderol that is just that: folderol. Crap. Trash. Smack. Pick your noun, any noun.

Leave me to my own devices, and I’ll leave you to yours. If I want to accessorize my life with your trappings, I’ll ask. Otherwise, sod off.

Here’s a few items, from the land of the free, no less.

Atheist Discrimination Lawsuit Dismissed
A $250,000 religious discrimination suit against Associates Commerce Solutions was dismissed by a judge. Carletta Sims alleged that she had been fired because she was an atheist; the judge, however, found that the vice president who made the termination decision did so based upon misleading information supplied by two other employees and that means that his decision wasn't discriminatory.
Technically, the decision is surely fair - after all, the vice president didn't deliberately discriminate. It is disturbing, however, that Sims wasn't given her job back and the other two employees fired because they surely engaged in discrimination and prejudice - harmful prejudice, too, because they got a woman fired simply because she didn't follow their religion. “


http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/03/antiatheist_dis.html

“Eugene Volokh has just written a law article (PDF file here) on how atheist fathers and mothers are routinely discriminated against in child custody cases. He cites over 70 recent cases across the country - and these were only the ones which were appealed, so they probably represent a fraction of the actual cases. Volokh recalls how Percy Byshe Shelley was the first father to be denied custody because of his atheism - but his dilemma doesn't belong to a different time and place:
"That time and place, it turns out, is 2005 Michigan, where a modern Shelley might be denied custody based partly on his 'not regularly attend[ing] church and present[ing] no evidence demonstrating any willingness or capacity to attend to religion with [his children],' or having a 'lack of religious observation.'  It's 1992 South Dakota, where Shelley might have been given custody but only on condition that he 'will agree to present a plan to the Court of how [he] is going to commence providing some sort of spiritual opportunity for the [children] to learn about God while in [his] custody.' It's 2005 Arkansas, 2002 Georgia, 2005 Louisiana, 2004 Minnesota, 2005 Mississippi, 1992 New York, 2005 North Carolina, 1996 Pennsylvania, 2004 South Carolina, 1997 Tennessee, 2000 Texas, and, going back to the 1970s and 1980s, Alabama, Connecticut, the District of Columbia, Iowa, Montana, and Nebraska.  In 2000, the Mississippi Supreme Court ordered a mother to take her child to church each week, reasoning that 'it is certainly to the best interests of [the child] to receive regular and systematic spiritual training'; in 1996, the Arkansas Supreme Court did the same, partly on the grounds that weekly church attendance, rather than just the once-every-two-weeks attendance that the child would have had if he went only with the other parent, provides superior 'moral instruction.'"
Of course, this is an outrageous attack on religious liberty. Imagine if Christian parents were denied custody because of their faith. O'Reilly would have weeks of programming. But atheists? Naah. When Christianists declare that they are fighting for religious freedom, bring this issue up. It will determine whether they are in good faith, so to speak, or not.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_atheists

“In the United States, there is widespread disapproval of atheists. For example, according to motherjones.com, 52% of Americans claim they would not vote for a well-qualified atheist for president. [3] More recently, a 2006 study at the University of Minnesota showed atheists to be the most mistrusted minority among Americans. [4] Notwithstanding such attitudes, atheists are legally protected from discrimination in the United States. They have been among the strongest advocates of the legal separation of church and state. American courts have regularly, if controversially, interpreted the constitutional requirement for separation of church and state as protecting the freedoms of non-believers, as well as prohibiting the establishment of any state religion. Atheists often sum up the legal situation with the phrase: "Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion." [5]
In the 1994 case Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, Justice Souter wrote in the opinion for the Court that: "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion." [6] Everson v. Board of Education established that "neither a state nor the Federal Government can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another". This applies the Establishment Clause to the states as well as the federal government. [7] However, several state constitutions make the protection of persons from religious discrimination conditional on their acknowledgement of the existence of a deity, apparently making freedom of religion in those states inapplicable to atheists. These state constitutional clauses have not been tested. Civil rights cases are typically brought in federal courts; so such state provisions are mainly of symbolic importance.”


“It is his personal story about the ordeal he and has family have been swept up in after their daughter, Nicole, refused to join a prayer circle during a basketball game at their local high school. Nicole, instead, recited the "godless" Pledge of Allegiance.
From there, events went out of control. Chester Smalkowski and family members attempted to hold a conversation with the high school principal. That turned into a physical altercation, Mr. Smalkowski was arrested under a battery of charges, and the authorities offered to dismiss the case if the Atheist family fled the state.
American Atheists joined in the subsequent criminal case, and Chester Smalkowski -- battling incredible "Bible Belt" odds in the courtroom -- was found innocent of the charges. News of that can be found on the American Atheists web site..”


http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/07/09/jeebus-macht-frei

“Despite threats of litigation from the ACLU, one Delaware school district has made it abundantly clear that they will not surrender America’s Christian heritage without a fight.
For years, the Indian River School District (IRSD) Board of Education of Sussex County, Delaware, has opened with an invocation. Recently, they received a threatening letter from the Delaware chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) demanding that they discontinue their tradition of prayer.
School Board Takes a Brave Stand
After seeking legal counsel, a meeting was called, and community residents gathered at the Frankford Elementary School. In response to the ACLU’s threats, IRSD board president Harvey Walls asked board member Dr. Donald G. Hattier to deliver a prayer. Amid the crowd’s loud cheers, Hattier rose and recited George Washington’s prayer which was offered during America’s fight for independence…”
“The Delaware Daily Times added:
Many begged the school board not to take Jesus away from their children. Others read scriptures from the Bible citing instructions given by Jesus…”

On the evening in August 2004 when the board was to announce its new policy, hundreds of people turned out for the meeitng. The Dobrich family and Jane Doe felt intimidated and asked a state trooper to escort them.
The complaint recounts a raucous crowd that applauded the board’s opening prayer and then, when sixth-grader Alexander Dobrich stood up to read a statement, yelled at him “take your yarmulke off!” His statement, read by Samantha, confided “I feel bad when kids in my class call me Jew boy.”
A former board member suggested that Mona Dobrich might “disappear” like Madalyn Murray O’Hair, the atheist whose Supreme Court case resulted in ending organized school prayer. She disappeared in 1995 and her dismembered body was found six years later.
The crowd booed an ACLU speaker and told her to “go back up north.”
In the days after the meeting the community poured venom on the Dobriches. Callers to the local radio station said the family they should convert or leave the area. Someone called them and said the Ku Klux Klan was nearby.”

Goddammit, anyone else see the disconnect here?

Unless I woke up in 1941 Berlin, newsflash people: This is the United States of America. This bullshit will not stand. We ask for equal consideration, and are shouted down. We ask for a seat at the table, to be told sit at the childrens’. We ask that we be left to our own, and we are invaded. It permeates this culture, this nauseating, inconsiderate, UnAmerican attitude, that somehow, we are the lesser people, we are the inferior people, and we are the dregs of humanity, because we’re godless. We’re accused of all sorts of rhetorical dreck: from satanic worship to baby eating. From self-worship to imposing our viewpoint on others (raven.crow.black). We’re shit on, marginalized, dehumanized, any other kind of –ized you can think of.

And then we’re accused of being negative. We’re accused of whining. It’s a finger-pointing festival of acrimony. We’re told to shut up, we’re accused of being unappreciative of what we have.

Small wonder, then, the rage. I’m mad as hell: how about you?

You all know the drill. You’ve heard all the routines. All the mindless drivel, the seemingly endless carp that these religious folk dribble out of their mouths, the drool of imbeciles made poison.

I can’t speak for other atheists, only for myself: I want what’s mine, my birthright, as an American citizen. I will not be silent: I will not be shamed. The heel of the boot to my neck shall not triumph. I will be slave to no man, regardless of religion, regardless of majority.

“The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy.
Benjamin Franklin, Emblematical Representations, Circa 1774

You can have what’s yours. Understand, though:
That’s not everything under the sun. Regardless of what book you use. Despite the endless propaganda, the brainwashing.

I will be free. I will not be silenced. And if I think your opinion is foolish, it’s my right as an American to fucking well say so.

And if you want to take it to the next level, my reply is this: you’d better be good, bucko.

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22 comments:

mxracer652 said...

Righty-O RA.

This is why I refuse to live anywhere below the Manson-Nixon line, you still find people living in the 1950's, it's incredibly ridiculous.

say no to christ said...

Well said Ra!! Bravo! I feel the same frustrations. I cant stand the way people who were once friendly with you all the sudden dont want anything to do with you upon finding out your an atheist.

I have lived many years in the bible belt and believe me the ignorence runs ramped. And my daughters were victomized and know first hand all about their so called "christian love". Almost three years ago a school in NC passed out gideon bibles to my daughter in her classroom. When I put a stop to it my daughters were singled out in every way possible. Christians are the most emotionally abusive people I have ever met. I admit I avoid christians cuz they are cruel and untrustworthy. I have yet to meet one that might change my mine, even the liberal ones. Their true colors eventually come through, every time.


Amy

Krystalline Apostate said...

mxracer:
This is why I refuse to live anywhere below the Manson-Nixon line
That play on words never fails to get a laugh outta me.
Ozzie & frickin' Harriet. Unbelievable.

SNTC:
That's awful. You have my heartfelt sympathies.
I admit I avoid christians cuz they are cruel and untrustworthy.
Well, I can tick off 2 that are nowhere near that bad. My old HS friend, who's as lovely a human being as any xtian could hope to be, & spanders (of course).
But there's a distinct personality change in many of them, on the discovery of one's atheism.
I haven't had anyone flip out yet (most are surprised as hell, lemmee tellya), but I give it time. People here in CA are pretty easy going (as you know already).
Have you run into any discrimination in Monterey?

Beowulf said...

Well, my first reaching was to say ‘cry me a river.’ But on the other hand, I live in southern California where there is a little bit of everything and everyone (though the tide has seemed to have turned contra Christianity IMHO). So there’s not a over domination of anyone thing/system per se. I can see though that in other parts of the country there could be some domineering issues to deal with, because there is a dominating ideal or prevalent religious atmosphere/culture. Without denying your frustrations, I think it’s still acceptable to also identify, as you did, the continuing persecutions of Christians in other countries (which are far more intense than any atheist oppression that I am aware of). Moreover, we got you hands down historically.

Last time I checked atheists were about 4% of the USA population (this was maybe 1 or 2 years ago); thus it should be expected that not everything is going to be rinsed of whatever historical roots are underneath us. Though a small # doesn’t make oppressionokay, at least your not being “forced” (with life/death) to convert/de-convert to anything.

I am with you about Jobs not being lost for religious /anti-religious reasons. No mater what side you stand on. But I can give plenty of incidents of the same thing happening to Christians as well. Nevertheless, I am with you on equal rights and support your right to be an atheist, but at the same time, I support my right and others to be a Christian without being muzzled because of it.

So I think we want the same thing: To be what we are without being gagged.

So there is a common goal we can both work on, but it seems that on the political level there is too much hypersensitivity (sometimes) to make any progress—on both sides.

***

On last thing:

So you guys don’t eat babies huh?

Krystalline Apostate said...

BF:
So there’s not a over domination of anyone thing/system per se. I can see though that in other parts of the country there could be some domineering issues to deal with, because there is a dominating ideal or prevalent religious atmosphere/culture
Depends on which state you're in. Oaklahoma and Indiana are absolutely awful about the xtian control thing.
Moreover, we got you hands down historically.
Another source of frustration: most folks use the argument from tradition, rather than seeing the point. O'Reilly springs to mind.
Last time I checked atheists were about 4% of the USA population (this was maybe 1 or 2 years ago); thus it should be expected that not everything is going to be rinsed of whatever historical roots are underneath us.
I'd not dream of doing such a thing. Most atheists wouldn't. As to the 4% stat, well, I wouldn't be overly surprised if it weren't somewhat higher.
Living in fear is such a shitty way to be.
But I can give plenty of incidents of the same thing happening to Christians as well.
Do share. I'd like to think the likelihood is that it wasn't because of atheists running the show.
but at the same time, I support my right and others to be a Christian without being muzzled because of it.
Hey, I just want it kept out of the state, local, & federal government. & the schools. The SC rightly observed, that religion is best taught at home, by the parents.
So there is a common goal we can both work on, but it seems that on the political level there is too much hypersensitivity (sometimes) to make any progress—on both sides.
Agreed. I've noticed something however, over the years:
The only way things get done is via overreaction. It's sad, but true.
So you guys don’t eat babies huh?
ROFLMAO!
I hear they make a great stew, but I'm on a veggie diet. ;)

say no to christ said...

Bf

Ok lets get some history straight here. First off, you are doing exactly what Ra was talking about. You poor poor christians are so persecuted throughout history. Bull shit! Rome didnt just wake up one day and decide to kill off all the christians. Christians were martyrs! They would reeked havoc in the name of their christ till they were persicuted just like him. The first so called "christian persecution" wasnt because of their beliefs, it was because they were accused of arson! And the more likely number of christians killed is more like a few thousand over a course of time and NOT hundreds of thousands to millions like so many christians claim. Now you want to talk about a group of peoples who have been persecuted throughout history for no reason what so ever other than being born the wrong sex, is WOMEN! Millions upon millions of infant girls to old women have been beaten, raped, tortured and burned at the stake alive, all in the name of YOUR god.

And another thing if you think Atheists are not killed for their lack of belief in countries throughout the world think again! As a matter of fact they are more so persecuted in those same countries christians are. When my husband was sent to Iraq the first time and was waiting in Kuwait before the war began he was told not to say anything about his atheism cuz there atheism is a death sentence! So dont even act like Christians are so much more persectuted than any other group of people! Oh and what about those native americans, slaves and all the other endeginous peoples the christians came across and forced their religion on??? Christian persecution is a way over blown line of BS!

say no to christ said...

And yes I do sometimes have babies for breakfast but only when I'm PMSing. ;) lol

say no to christ said...

Ra asked:Have you run into any discrimination in Monterey?

I have to say not really. I do however get lots of dirty looks when I wear my "there are no gods, no angels, no devils, no heaven or hell. There is only the natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." T-shirt. I have been pretty lucky here. My neighbor was raised by methodist missionaries, but wants nothing to do with religion especially for her kids. She says her christian upbringing made her feel inferior and shameful for being a girl. We share books and can talk for hours about how fucked up we were before our atheism. Man, we had some distorted views about ourselves as young christians. Even our views on parenting were all messed up till we woke up and can now see the benifits of godless parenting. Our kids dont live in fear and have horrible nightmares about satan, demons and hell and are so much more balanced and laid back compared to their christian friends.

Look at me going on and on. Its was just such a relief finally having a nieghbor that wasnt Pat robertsons body guard(no shit, my nieghbor on one side) or a crazy mystic that heard the voices of the spirits in her head(and the nieghbor on the other side in NC).


Amy

Krystalline Apostate said...

SNTC:
Wow, that's quite a rant. I can't say I've been persecuted personally, but injustice has always pissed me right the fuck off.
But BF is right about there being some persecution in other countries. Of course, there's some truth to the adage of 'When in Rome', etc.
Going about trying to change the way people live & think is dangerous turf, to be sure.
But they sure need to work on the 'invitation to share' thing.
Not everyone wants to share.

Krystalline Apostate said...

BF:
I support my right and others to be a Christian without being muzzled because of it.
Waitaminnit: who is muzzling whom? What the hell are you talking about? You people have been in charge since what? The 3rd, 4th CE? I don't want your religion making decisions that impact my life. I don't want religion to play any part in how my tax $ are spent. I don't want some child bullied over belief. No school-led prayers, stay outta the government, worship on your own time, not my dime.
These are all fair & reasonable requests.
Tell me, then, how is anyone being 'muzzled'?

Beowulf said...

You poor poor christians are so persecuted throughout history. Bull shit!

You’re overstating the negative. You don’t have to be pro-Christian to acknowledge historical Christian persecution. Sure, some Christians pull the persecution card too much or over state it. But, Christianity was always an illegal religion from Trajan to Constantine, and subject to annoyance and violence everywhere. There was much persecution under Nero, Domitian, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Septimius Severus, Maximinus, Decius, Valerian, Aurelian, and Diocletian. Some persecution was prompted not so much by hatred of Christianity, but as by zeal for the maintenance—yet persecution no less.

Now you want to talk about a group of peoples who have been persecuted throughout history for no reason what so ever other than being born the wrong sex, is WOMEN!

Sure but that’s not the contention of the post.

And another thing if you think Atheists are not killed for their lack of belief in countries throughout the world think again! As a matter of fact they are more so persecuted in those same countries christians are.

I was speaking to RA in the USA. I am sure the Muslimisms Iraq didn’t care for your ‘atheist’ husband given their theocracy and theology. But I never denied ‘atheist persecution in other countries, to leave the stawman alone. Secondly, don’t pretent Christian persecution is not a serious problem in other parts of the world. Persecution is most severe in such countries as China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Nigeria, Cuba, North Korea, Sudan, Laos Uzbekistan, Pakistan, and Vietnam.

Beowulf said...

RA,

First, you sound like your emoting, and imputing a theocratic view of government that I do not support.

I don't want your religion making decisions that impact my life.

What do you mean by ‘decisions in your life’? That’s not what I am talking about here.

I don't want religion to play any part in how my tax $ are spent.

Neither do I, and I don’t want my taxes spent on something that is antithetical to my beliefs. You write as if it is a theocracy or something.

I don't want some child bullied over belief.

Neither do I. And I think it should be okay for a child to be openly Atheistic or Christian without being ‘muzzled’.

No school-led prayers, stay outta the government, worship on your own time, not my dime.

I don’t support forcing others to accept a certain religion, or theocracy, or forced worship. Just as you don’t want religion thought on your dime, as a Christian, I don’t want atheism taught on my dime either. If politics are involved in ensuring that doesn’t happen, then that’s the American way. The will of the people—a Democracy.

These are all fair & reasonable requests.

Right, but I hope you were not putting those words n my mouth.


Tell me, then, how is anyone being 'muzzled'?

Some examples are issues like this
this , this ,this , this , this , this , this

Krystalline Apostate said...

BF:
First, you sound like your emoting, and imputing a theocratic view of government that I do not support.
Well, I don't know what you support. Now I do.
What do you mean by ‘decisions in your life’? That’s not what I am talking about here.
I'm talking about legislature.
Neither do I, and I don’t want my taxes spent on something that is antithetical to my beliefs. You write as if it is a theocracy or something.
Where have you been? 1st off, I don't see taxes being spent on anything antithetical to your beliefs. 2nd off, between Barton the Liar & the dominionists, Dobson, Kennedy, all these mooks that are trying to reclaim 'their country', theocracy's not far off.
And I think it should be okay for a child to be openly Atheistic or Christian without being ‘muzzled’.
Hey, complete agreement.
I don’t support forcing others to accept a certain religion, or theocracy, or forced worship. Just as you don’t want religion thought on your dime, as a Christian, I don’t want atheism taught on my dime either. If politics are involved in ensuring that doesn’t happen, then that’s the American way. The will of the people—a Democracy.
When has atheism ever been taught on anyone's dime? This is news to me.
We're not a democracy, BTW. We're a representative republic. & you're 'ensuring that doesn't happen' - well, it works both ways, no double-standard. It's not only about the 'will of the people' - because the minority has just as many rights as the majority.
Right, but I hope you were not putting those words n my mouth.
Nope.
I find many of your examples...troubling.
A. I don't trust Worldnut daily as far as I could sling a piano.
B. A child should be able to read whatever they please at recess
C. Due to the invidious nature of religion, it should be kept out of the schools.
D. A 4 year old evangelizing? That's just...creepy.
E. Nobody should be censured or fired for what they do on their free time. As long as no harm is incurred, no law broken, that should be off limits. Unfortunately, some people on both sides of the fence violate this.

The other thing is, & this isn't a personal slam or anything, but on a huge percentage, every time some xtian makes some claim, I dig into it, I find a great deal of what might be termed 'sins of omission'. Wait till your kids become teenagers - you'll know EXACTLY what I mean. This isn't restricted to religious people only - everyone does this, it's part of the human condition.
I just find it difficult to reconcile that w/the claims to the higher moral ground that your side of the fence lays claim to, is all.

say no to christ said...

BF said:"I was speaking to RA in the USA. I am sure the Muslimisms Iraq didn’t care for your ‘atheist’ husband given their theocracy and theology."


Um...I do believe you said this..."I can see though that in other parts of the country there could be some domineering issues to deal with, because there is a dominating ideal or prevalent religious atmosphere/culture. Without denying your frustrations, I think it’s still acceptable to also identify, as you did, the continuing persecutions of Christians in other countries (which are far more intense than any atheist oppression that I am aware of). Moreover, we got you hands down historically."
--------------------------

Dont try to make me look like I'm too stupid to follow the conversation! You made a statement and I called you on it.
----------------

BF said:"Secondly, don’t pretent Christian persecution is not a serious problem in other parts of the world."

I dont think its as serious as christians would have us believe and I never said it wasnt going on, but what I find funny is that the majority of the worst and most violent christian persecution is coming from one of your own Abrahamic bothers and that christianity is just as guilty as its brothers(jews and muslims).And anotherthing that gets under my skin is that christains consider any kind of limitations to their agenda as persecution. I.E. Cuba just because they keep a watchfull eye on christians, for good reasons! Due to new laws made that ok gay marriage and protect transvestites and so on. The government has to keep an eye on the biggest threat to these people and their biggest threats are the christians!

It is damn near impossible to have a logical debate with someone who is not a critical thinker and can only see the side of the story he has been force fed by religious zealots.

Beowulf said...

quote
***
BF said:"I was speaking to RA in the USA. I am sure the Muslimisms Iraq didn’t care for your ‘atheist’ husband given their theocracy and theology."


Um...I do believe you said this..."I can see though that in other parts of the country there could be some domineering issues to deal with, because there is a dominating ideal or prevalent religious atmosphere/culture. Without denying your frustrations, I think it’s still acceptable to also identify, as you did, the continuing persecutions of Christians in other countries (which are far more intense than any atheist oppression that I am aware of). Moreover, we got you hands down historically."
--------------------------

Dont try to make me look like I'm too stupid to follow the conversation! You made a statement and I called you on it.
----------------

***
/quote

How am I tiring to make you look stupid? You putting words and ideas in my mouth that I never stated. If you look bad, it’s your own fault.

>>YOU STATED “And another thing if you think Atheists are not killed for their lack of belief in countries throughout the world think again!”

Where did I deny this?????

(1) I said, “Without denying your frustrations I think it’s still acceptable to also identify, as you did, the continuing persecutions of Christians in other countries (which are far more intense than any atheist oppression that I am aware of).”

My points (1) I acknowledged atheist oppression in other countries (2) I did not deny his frustrations in the USA (hence, when I said he wasn’t getting his head cut off and the atheist ‘death statement”) (3) I stated that Christian oppression in other countries is more intense in other countries and historically (a sheer # factor).

So, even when you quote it, it looks like you didn’t t follow the dialogue that closely.

Back at you…It is damn near impossible to have a logical debate with someone who is not a critical thinker and can only see the side of the story he has been propagated by secular zealots.

Krystalline Apostate said...

BF:
Sure, some Christians pull the persecution card too much or over state it. But, Christianity was always an illegal religion from Trajan to Constantine, and subject to annoyance and violence everywhere. There was much persecution under Nero, Domitian, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Septimius Severus, Maximinus, Decius, Valerian, Aurelian, and Diocletian.
Not so.
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/xtianpersecute.html
As for this:
I am sure the Muslimisms Iraq didn’t care for your ‘atheist’ husband given their theocracy and theology.
That's entirely contingent on the strictness of Shaira law. The Koran only puts death sentences on those who were born into Islam & leave, or who convert & then de-convert. Anyone else is free to believe as they wish (there's no effort to convert in Islam). Of course, being the minority under dhimmi, they suffer some discrimination. But it's certainly not 'off w/their heads!'. Again, which country, how liberal they are.
Likelihood is, hubby was told to keep it under wraps in order to maintain some form of domestic tranquility. But that's a guess.

I won't deny (nor did I) that persecution of xtianity is severe. China is particularly bad about any group-think that differs from theirs (witness the Falun Gong persecution).

I'd like to see the #'s. Oh, from a secular source, if you could. Not marginalizing, but embellishments do creep in from time to time. That's just the human condition, in just about everything.

Krystalline Apostate said...

BF:
Oh, & why the 'atheist' in quotes? That can easily be misconstrued.

say no to christ said...

Bf

You are the one who brought up the so called long deadly christian persecutions in rome. I merely called you on it. You also claimed that christians by far have suffered more persecution than atheists "hands down". I simply said bull shit. And then you said that you were talking about today in our country. You cant just blab on and think one of us isnt going to call you on it. You dont want to talk about Romes persecution of christians and how christians are supposedly more persecuted than atheists than dont put that agument out there.


Ra

In the middle east certain laws are not inforced and many people have been killed for being deemed an atheist. Its supposed to be illeagal to kill your daughters for being raped and it still happens although in much less numbers now in the more progressive areas.

Beowulf said...

Oh, & why the 'atheist' in quotes? That can easily be misconstrued.

Because I was quoting myself.

****
You are the one who brought up the so called long deadly christian persecutions in rome I merely called you on it

What there not? Until 313 there was plenty of Christian persecution.


You also claimed that christians by far have suffered more persecution than atheists "hands down". I simply said bull shit.

Um numerically yeah, because we out number you quadrillion to 1 historically for one. So are you arguing that atheists have been persecuted more throughout history?

And then you said that you were talking about today in our country. You cant just blab on and think one of us isnt going to call you on it.

Ever read things in context? I was speaking of both to RA, you have brought up nothing to rebut what I have stated.

You dont want to talk about Romes persecution of christians and how christians are supposedly more persecuted than atheists than dont put that agument out there.

You’re the one bring in the red herrings. Don’t think you won’t be called on it.

Krystalline Apostate said...

BF:
Because I was quoting myself.
O-kay (he said suspiciously). I'll cut that 1 loose.
What there not? Until 313 there was plenty of Christian persecution.
Did you read the link?
Um numerically yeah, because we out number you quadrillion to 1 historically for one.
Sorry, SNTC, atheism is a more recent development. He's gotcha there.

I'd prefer it if both of you let this argument go. Please.

say no to christ said...

Ra I agree with you to let it go cuz some christians will always say they are being persecuted cuz we wont let them evangelize to our school kids.

But for the record atheism is as old as religion. Atheists may not have the numbers but in some of the same countries especially , the countries that actually kill christians, atheists fair no better. And like you I am sick of christians whinning about persecution just because some places wont let them stand on a street corner and sprew their hate speach.

And this is PMS week so
if I'm coming across a bit moody dont take it personal. Aunt flow turns me into a real bitch for a few days, but it will pass. :)

Krystalline Apostate said...

SNTC:
Ra I agree with you to let it go cuz some christians will always say they are being persecuted cuz we wont let them evangelize to our school kids.
Well, also, BF had some valid points, to be fair.
And this is PMS week so
if I'm coming across a bit moody dont take it personal. Aunt flow turns me into a real bitch for a few days, but it will pass.

LOL...duly noted. You're forgiven, m'love. Of course, not your fault. Ain't heard the 'aunt flow' phrase in many moons. Made me smile.
Hope you feel better soon.