left biblioblography: LIPPING OFF TO GOD: SOME DREAMERY

Sunday, May 28, 2006

LIPPING OFF TO GOD: SOME DREAMERY

I was puttering around on a theist site, when I came across this:

It was fairly interesting (at least it was lucid, and in no ways resembled the lunacy of the Twin Peaks episodes). I shan't poke fun: rather, I am republishing an article from my original website.


LIPPING OFF TO GOD



Now, I had this dream one night (9/10/2005), really strange. This is not bullshit.
I was having problems sleeping (drank too much coffee that day), and so I decided to find some kind of peaceful scenario, and lo! I was walking down a beach, seagulls flying, somewhat overcast (so I'm not a sun-worshipper: so sue me). I look up, and this is no bullshit folks, I see this huge, I mean HUGE ivory cathedral in the distance, in the clouds, and I see this large figure, some kind of shiny medieval Christ-figure (stay with me, this is where it gets good) at the gates, fades back to the cloud-wreathed gates, and I hear this voice, calling my name, saying "You deny me?"

Darkness.

And guess what the first words out of my mouth were? "What about the Canaanites?"

I hear this intonation, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of--?"

"Yeah, yeah," I tell the voice. "The earth. Wasn't there. Now, howzabout them Canaanites?"

Darkness. Silence.
"Wait. Don't go! I want an explanation!"

I woke up.

Now, I don't mind saying, it made me more than a little nervous. There are provisos here (aren't there always?):

1. If I have 2 more of these (visions? Dreams? Let's go with dreams for the nonce), then I will have some SERIOUS issues to cope with, and
2. The shiny medieval Christ-figure. If it had been a living, breathing figure, well, you wouldn't be reading this here. I'd have dumped the website, rent my garments, pledged my soul, clad myself in ash cloth (you get the general idea), etc. But what I saw in the dream looked like something you'd buy in a Tijuana curios shop (probably cleaner and newer, I'd guess).

As of this writing (6 days later), no revelations from on high. I wait, pensively.
More on this if it happens.

October 9th, 2005.
Interesting dreamery.

At some juncture (perhaps in the Hour of the Wolf?), I realized I was dreaming. Always love those. Wish I could do what that old charlatan, Castaneda, called 'creative dreaming', if memory serves, where a person dreams in a manner directed at a specific target.
And so, I said, "Cool, I'm dreaming. Let's fly!"
There was indeed some sensation, not the sort I'd experienced as a youth. Explanation later.
I began spinning thru a dizzying vortex of cumulus clouds, and somehow (no joke, folks!) I was an angel of some sort (I have a memory of briefly glimpsing reflections of myself, decked out in white, full wings, the works).
At some point, I came back to Earth, and it became a dull, dreary return to dust, pollution, bad neighborhoods w/chain-link fences (which is odd, as I grew up in Pleasanton, nothing like that at all).

Brief interlude (I hope) on flying dreams:
There's all sorts of explanations for these, but I like the Taoist concept best.
In this, there is a human treasure called Shen, which roughly translates from the Chinese as spirit. In Taoism, the prevalent theory is that when one is young, and one experiences the flying sensation in these flying dreams, it means that the spirit isn't as firmly embedded as it is when one grows older. And anyone reading this who has had such a dream has probably experienced that sensation.

Now for the disclaimer.

I am still an atheist, thank you very much. I said I like this explanation, it's a pretty idea and all, but likely as not, some scientist will release a study next year, or whenever, w/a perfectly rational explanation.

Still, the angelic imagery troubles me sorely.

As of this date (5/27/2006), no religious iconography has plagued me yet.

But, in honesty, I question myself, my atheism, every day (if I can remember to: old age, it's a creepin' in all right). The nature of my personal skepticism, is, to quote Descartes: "Dubito ergo sum."

And still I wait for someone else to prove me wrong. Anyone. Even myself.

Thus far, all have fallen short of the mark.

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57 comments:

GooseHenry said...

Waiting for someone to prove you wrong ey?

Why don't you just ask God to reveal himself to you?

udonman said...

Ra and I thought the dream I keep having about me comiting sepuku and pulling my internal organs out till I turn my own skin inside out and rebuilding myself into a japanese women was a strange one.

At least Ive never had a fictional bible dream proabably because I didnt grow up being forced into a belief system.

Ra do you think If you never grew up with the bible and didnt have the knowledge of the book you have would you have had this dream.

and goose has your god ever revealed him/her/it self to you.

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

goosehenry:
"Why don't you just ask God to reveal himself to you?".

I for one would be deeply disturbed if the almighty finally deigned to appear only to flash his privates.
Maybe that's just me, but hey...

And don't get huffy, goose.
If you ask an insipid question
you'll be answered in kind.

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

Hey, Relucty, as for being able to
focus or subtly direct the course of dreams... That is possibly in a slight way. But only in that state between waking and dreaming.
Nothing mythical about it, I think.
I'm getting good at it. That is, when I actually DO sleep. But insomnia, I've found, has certain charms as well.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
Why don't you just ask God to reveal himself to you?
I did.
Nothing happened. All several times.

Krystalline Apostate said...

udonman:
Ra and I thought the dream I keep having about me comiting sepuku and pulling my internal organs out till I turn my own skin inside out and rebuilding myself into a japanese women was a strange one.
Wow. What a great story idea.
Can I borrow that?

Krystalline Apostate said...

HMDK:
I for one would be deeply disturbed if the almighty finally deigned to appear only to flash his privates.
(Chuckling deeply)...what a strange, strange thought.
Hey, Relucty, as for being able to
focus or subtly direct the course of dreams... That is possibly in a slight way. But only in that state between waking and dreaming.

I've been able to do it on rare occasions, in deep sleep.
Nothing mythical about it, I think.
No, nor mystical either.
I'm getting good at it. That is, when I actually DO sleep. But insomnia, I've found, has certain charms as well.
Well, if you get any wild scenarios (I do, all the time), don't forget:
WRITE IT DOWN.
Tinder for the creative fire, so to speak.

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

Relucty, well, what can I say?
I'm a strange, strange guy.
But really, when someone delivers me -that- rich a set-up I can't help but pounce.
Actually, I found it funny in a different way, as well...
Because, come to think of it,
that WOULD be a very appropriate way for a supposed deity to act...
it would sum up his accomplishments thus far in a nutshell.

P.S.
Yes, yes... I MEANT mystical,
but WROTE mythical.... so sue me!
Heeh!

P.P.S.
I'll have to leave for a while...
Gotta watch a Homicide re-run.

The smiling best from yours truly,
Michael.

karen said...

RA
Didn't we discuss this in another thread already? Or did i dream that?

Krystalline Apostate said...

karen:
Didn't we discuss this in another thread already? Or did i dream that?
Aye, we did.
I was feelin' a bit lazy & hazy, so I 'phoned it in' this time around.
Multiple & profuse apologies.

HMDK:
I'm a strange, strange guy.
That, as they say, is an understatement. ;)
But really, when someone delivers me -that- rich a set-up I can't help but pounce.
I'm that way verbally.
that WOULD be a very appropriate way for a supposed deity to act...
Maybe a fertility deity....
so sue me!
My lawyer'll talk to your lawyer. ;)
Gotta watch a Homicide re-run
Hey, I usedta love that show. I ain't seen any reruns over here, dag nabbit it. Enjoy.

GooseHenry said...

Hairless

Don't worry, i can hardly remeber the times anymore when i could get offended by a blog post

RA

Well, why not try again? You have nothing to lose.

udonman said...

Wow. What a great story idea.
Can I borrow that?


Ra normally Id say yes but not this one sorry my friend I am fleshing or defleshing that one out my self.

That dream is significant to my life at this point.

Its a story I feel is my responseability I just knew youd like a sneak peak at it.

It should be on my blog later tonight or tomorrow night one or the other.

But as far as I said about youre dream and the fact that youre so know so much about the bible.

Ive never had a biblicle dream no angels no deities no such gods ever I know its from the fact that to me the bible is a book of fiction that was never forced upon me Iv read bits and pieces of it and it held no appeal to me but you were raised on it and have read the entire book so it is a part of you where as it is no part of me.

Do you think that the other person who had the biblicle dream would be able to understand the fact that if he was as ignorant of the bible as me he would never have had such a dream.

where as on the other hand if I were to have such a dream and I were to look into the bible and such nonsense was in the book I dont know whether or not Id become a beliver but it would be more persasive to me then a street corner preacher or a bible qoute from a sunday christian.

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

Goose spoke thusly:
Hairless

"Don't worry, i can hardly remeber the times anymore when i could get offended by a blog post"

Good for you. And I mean that.

---

Goose proceeded to utter:

"RA

Well, why not try again? You have nothing to lose."

Except time, temper, patience, self-respect and sanity, of course.
I just, alone in my appartment,
asked out loud: " Hey, god, if you're there, please show your face".
Nothing happened.
Great show for someone supposedly
omnipresent and all-powerful...

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

Tony...
By the way, great idea for a story.
A superb metaphor in a sense.

udonman said...

Thanks hairless the post is up on my blog go take a look.

I was about to utter the same about god showing himself but I think I already freak out some of the guest in the lobby here at work much less start talking to my self.

GooseHenry said...

HairlessMonkey

Well, do you want God to reveal himself to you?

udonman said...

goose I dont know about hairless but I want the easter bunny here right now I need chocolate!!!!!!

HairlessMonkeyDK said...

Goose...
If there is a god, yes,
because "it"'s got a hell of a lot of explaining to do.
If he/she/it is omnipresent and omnipotent and this planet, glorious as it is in part, is the best it can do, this being you
cater to, falls woefully short of the mark.

If ever I should consider the
existence of a "maker",
the idea of a demiurge would at least make a skewed sort of sense.
The bible? Or the koran?
Not so much.
All religious texts I've ever cast an eye on
are so obviously influenced by the time in which they were written.
Written.
Written by strange people...
People... Humans... Us.

And that's what it comes down to,
for me.
Prayers are a useless waste of time, when there are people suffering.
Stop folding your hands in prayer
and use them to help your fellow man instead. If every religious person, no matter what faith,
would do that, the world, the here and now, would be better.
Stop wishing for a here-after
paradise...
Start building one right here.

karen said...

Goose
If god wouldn't evince himself to me when I was a child and truly, honestly and absolutely believed in him-and desperately needed him-why would he reveal himself to me now?
BF gave me some links on the hiddeness of God on his blog on the End of Fruitful Discussion thread.
(you would probably enjoy his blog, BTW).
Basically, if I understand it correctly, God is not an "on call" type of god.
He remains out of sight to allow free will to take it's course.
He only manifests himself to those who truly seek him with a pure heart.
And if we fail to see him, it is human error.
Oh, and one might have to wait until judgement to see him.

So it's not like the likes of hairless and tony and ra and I can say "I'm willing to see you, and to believe if I do."
r4d has it right: "Believe and you will believe."

udonman said...

"Believe and you will believe."

I belive that goose will not be satisfied with any of our answers and to tell you the truth he shouldnt be but if he demands we provide evidence he should provide evidence to.

say no to christ said...

You guys make me laugh. What a great way to start the day! :)

Let me play the role of Joseph.;)
I tend to think that the subconcience tries to tell you some of the things you might have overlooked in the awake world that can be helpful in your studies or whatever it is you have been intersted in.
I had a dream once that I was walking with the angles to Lots house and one of the angels was Jesus. At the time I was trying to learn everything I could to be a "good christian" and I just couldnt get over Lot offering up his daughters to be ravished by pervs. I was real angry that the angels never once told Lot that he was wrong to do that and instead still called him "rightous". Anyway, I believe my dream was a way for me to ask them WTF, but of course I got no answer. I believe my subconcience was telling me that their behavior (what lot did and what the angels didnt do) is unexcusable and just plain evil through and through and there could never be a good reason for their actions. It was right then that I realized the bible was evil and it made people do evil and that I wanted no part in it.

I know this may sound a bit out there, but maybe your sleeping mind is trying to put things that you have learned about the bible in order and maybe in reading the bible missed that the canaanites are a missing link. Thats just my guess.

Amy

say no to christ said...

What R4d said reminds me so much of what my aunt told me once. She said "if enough people believe it is real somehow it becomes real." Scary thought huh?

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
Well, do you want God to reveal himself to you?
How does that go again? Oh yeah...'a wicked & adulterous generation will need a sign, & it will not be given them'.
Terribly convenient.
HMDK:
the idea of a demiurge would at least make a skewed sort of sense.
Looking around, I'd have to agree.
karen:
Basically, if I understand it correctly, God is not an "on call" type of god.
He remains out of sight to allow free will to take it's course.
He only manifests himself to those who truly seek him with a pure heart.

Yeah, YHVH never returns my calls.
A pure heart? Since we're all born in 'original' sin, an impossibility.
Another convenient alibi.

Start building one right here.
Hear, hear!

Krystalline Apostate said...

SNTC:
I tend to think that the subconcience tries to tell you some of the things you might have overlooked in the awake world that can be helpful in your studies or whatever it is you have been intersted in.
Maybe. Then again, I have some pretty wild dreamery. Sometimes I dream about completely unrelated issues.
I know this may sound a bit out there, but maybe your sleeping mind is trying to put things that you have learned about the bible in order and maybe in reading the bible missed that the canaanites are a missing link.
Perhaps.
It was a while ago, after all.
It's more likely that there are far too many unanswered queries. & I'm a curious sort: I want all the answers, easy or no.
udonman:
I belive that goose will not be satisfied with any of our answers and to tell you the truth he shouldnt be but if he demands we provide evidence he should provide evidence to.
Or it could be that goose needs to repeat his 'evidence' over & over again, out of the simple need for positive reinforcement.

udonman said...

Or it could be that goose needs to repeat his 'evidence' over & over again, out of the simple need for positive reinforcement.

Perhaps

say no to christ said...

Ra said:"It's more likely that there are far too many unanswered queries. & I'm a curious sort: I want all the answers, easy or no."

I am exactly the same way. I need to have reasonable answers to EVERYTHING, especially when it comes to religion and the bible. I just couldnt go along with the rest without knowing why I should follow them and what it was that makes them right and the rest wrong. I think that is the most natural way to think, but so many of us are mentally oppressed by over bearing religious parents that believe a curious kid is a trouble maker. Because of that
I used to think that something was wrong with me, but now I know something is terrible wrong with everyone else. Very few of us are true thinkers thats why atheists are only 10% of the population.

say no to christ said...

I almost forgot! Goose henry said something about how christianity gained its numbers? Lets not forget that barbaric means of conversion the christians have used throughout history. I wonder how many of those great numbers of converts you talk about were forced by any means nessesary?

You know I just cant get over how so many people still believe in a book that has proven deadlier than the anarchist cook book. And how so many people can read all the evils in the bible and call it just. We are surrounded by people suffering from psychosis.

I wonder how many christians, Jews and Muslims realize that they are following the teachings of people who were suffering the horrific side effects of starvation? The bible is very clear the Isrealites suffered through many generations of drought and famine from the very begining and the isrealites behavior in the bible show clear signs of psychosis brought on by drought and famine. And yet, every psychosis act done in the bible is deemed a just act by its contempary followers. How messed up it that? Just something to think about.

Amy

Krystalline Apostate said...

SNTC:
Very few of us are true thinkers thats why atheists are only 10% of the population.
I think it's up to about 18% world wide.
he bible is very clear the Isrealites suffered through many generations of drought and famine from the very begining and the isrealites behavior in the bible show clear signs of psychosis brought on by drought and famine
That's actually a very nice analysis, dear.

udonman said...

Just letting everyone know I posted my dream on my blog.

GooseHenry said...

HMDK

Well if you are sincere about what you are saying you will certainly get to know God.

Anyhow, you say that if everyone would drop their religions and start helping out we could make a better world.

This implies that all theism is wrong and you are right. Quite a bold statement, what makes you so sure of that?

GooseHenry said...

Karen said

"He only manifests himself to those who truly seek him with a pure heart."

No, not so. I can assure you i have no "pure heart" and he revealed Himself to me.

About free will - it is a too simple an explanation i know, especially after what you have been through.

But if we remove free will, there is no point with anything is there?

There are also things i am frustrated about, things i would like to change.

But i rest in the fact that justice will be served one day.

GooseHenry said...

RA

you never answered the question... do you want God to reveal himself to you or not?

Asking Him to without wanting Him to is contradictory, no use.

GooseHenry said...

More thinkers - more atheists?

Why then has atheism (as a philosophy) so many holes in it?

I think about this everyday and atheism, so far, cannot explain the most basic things that makes me human

udonman said...

goose atheism is not a philosophy it is simply a lack of belief in the supernatural.

I don't believe in any god or gods.

I see no reason to even try since it would be impossible for a god to actually exist.


But right this moment I just asked god if he existed and nope nothing Nada zip big fat GOOSE EGG.

and I consider myself a good person. I don't know about the pure heart after all there has been high blood pressure in my family stemming from clog arteries so my heart may not be pure.
But as far as the xtian version of a clean heart I highly doubt I could live up to the biblical standards mainly because I am thinking individual who acts on my own and lives by social morals not by morals set upon us by a book of fiction written 2000 some years ago.

GooseHenry said...

Udonman

Even if atheism is just "lack of belief" you anyhow need an alternative philosophy for the creation of the universe, meaning of life etc. Right?

I guess you support naturalism right? Everything can be explained naturally by cause&effect? That would be your philososphy then.

Correct me if i am wrong.

GOOSE EGG? LOL

udonman said...

nah personally I can care less about how life started I have some scientific theories but no philsophies.

I guess you support naturalism right? Everything can be explained naturally by cause&effect? That would be your philososphy then.
nah nope reason critical thinking is not a philososphy.

now xtianity it comes down to being a philosophy.

my flyfishing it can be considerid a philsosphy if you consider the rolling loops of the fly line as our natural life there is the leader thin and clear like the mind of a child the shooting line slick and headstrong like that of an adolescent the casting line gentle taper into the backing strong and defiant like that of an old man fighting to be rembered as he once was.

udonman said...

yeah goose I knew Youd like it.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
Some of your commentary is so...goofy, I'm unsure where to begin.

you never answered the question... do you want God to reveal himself to you or not?
Not any more. I don't need any little voices in my head.
Asking Him to without wanting Him to is contradictory, no use.
Well, since He doesn't exist, I won't waste my time.
Why then has atheism (as a philosophy) so many holes in it?
I'm really quite surprised at this comment, as you've been at the NGB for quite some time now.
As udonman points out, it's not a philosophy. There are multiple 'philosophies' in atheism, too many to enumerate here. What 'holes' are you talking about?
I think about this everyday and atheism, so far, cannot explain the most basic things that makes me human
Why do you require an explanation? Think about that 1 for a while.
But i rest in the fact that justice will be served one day.
Bad news: there is no justice. There's just us.
I guess you support naturalism right? Everything can be explained naturally by cause&effect? That would be your philososphy then.
Really? Which approach are you talking about? The methodological, or the metaphysical?

say no to christ said...

Why do christians think that without god there is no purpose for life? That is the most retatrded thing I have ever heard! I live because I can reproduce like all other species on this planet that gives me the greatest purpose in life and that is to see my offspring make it to the next generation strong and healthy to assure me that my genes live on. For those that cant or dont want to reproduce they live like every other species to contribute to the hole of the species. It really is that simple, but when you polute the simplicity of life with evil religious beliefs you destroy all life in a slow painful drawn out way. Much like we see going on around us. I.E. War, rape, child abuse, deforestation and the list goes on......

Goose henry your beliefs are poison to the natural world and you are guilty of poluting and destroying all natural life. IMO

Amy

karen said...

Goose
No, not so. I can assure you i have no "pure heart" and he revealed Himself to me.
I suspect what is meant by pure here has to do with a total willingness to have God reveal himself, or something along that line, not purity in regard to life in general.

About free will - it is a too simple an explanation i know, especially after what you have been through.

But if we remove free will, there is no point with anything is there?


Well, I can't recall how we all weighed in on free will, but it seems like something man has, god or no god. It's simply a matter of making choices about what we do. We definitely have that ability sans god. It's with god that it gets iffy.

But I don't see what free will has to do with God's capacity to have given me some sign that I wasn't alone, some sort of solace in the moment-even without stopping the abuse. You know, some kind of footprints-in-the-sand thing. That wouldn't interfere with free will.
If the answer is silence, hell, I can pray to a popsicle stick and get that.

There are also things i am frustrated about, things i would like to change.

But i rest in the fact that justice will be served one day.

Good luck with that. Remember, offenders can have salvation too. Then, where's the justice?
And what point would justice serve then? Isn't that more revenge than justice?

GooseHenry said...

RA

"you never answered the question... do you want God to reveal himself to you or not?
Not any more. I don't need any little voices in my head."

Then you cannot know if He exists or not.

"What 'holes' are you talking about?"

Well given evolution its quite hard to combine naturalism with free will, consciousness, morality, rationality etc.

"I guess you support naturalism right? Everything can be explained naturally by cause&effect? That would be your philososphy then.
Really? Which approach are you talking about? The methodological, or the metaphysical?"

Both actually. If you subscribe to only one of them you are allowing for supernatural causes.

GooseHenry said...

SNTC

"Goose henry your beliefs are poison to the natural world and you are guilty of poluting and destroying all natural life. IMO"

Now that is something i have never heard before.

Imaginge that i am guilty of all that...

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
Then you cannot know if He exists or not.
My money's on NOT.
Well given evolution its quite hard to combine naturalism with free will, consciousness, morality, rationality etc.
Oh, all those supernatural qualities.
Don't you know those are all noises we make to ourselves, to quench the fear?
Both actually. If you subscribe to only one of them you are allowing for supernatural causes.
What utter folderol.
There is NO supernatural. There is NO GOD. There's just us, and everything just is.
All your romantic alibis are just that: romantic notions gone wildly astray.

GooseHenry said...

Goose:
"Then you cannot know if He exists or not.
My money's on NOT."

Ok. so you are open to the possibility anyways

"Don't you know those are all noises we make to ourselves, to quench the fear?"

No i didn't. Please explain. What fear?

"Both actually. If you subscribe to only one of them you are allowing for supernatural causes.
What utter folderol.
There is NO supernatural. There is NO GOD. There's just us, and everything just is. "

So everything can be explained naturally by cause and effect?

say no to christ said...

Goosehenry said:"Well given evolution its quite hard to combine naturalism with free will, consciousness, morality, rationality etc."

You have got to be kidding???
All species on this planet have free will, consciousness, morality and rationality. We are not the only animals that have thoughts and feelings. Shoot elephants have a wider range of emotions and thoughts than humans do. Maybe they are the chosen ones? My bet would be on the elephants.

Amy

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
So everything can be explained naturally by cause and effect?
For the millionth time: yes.
SNTC:
Shoot elephants have a wider range of emotions and thoughts than humans do.
Hey, I did a post on dolphins. Guess loosey Goosey missed that 1.

GooseHenry said...

RA

"For the millionth time: yes."

So your actions and thoughts are just effects of preceeding causes... do you think rationality and free will can exist under these conditions?

Are your actions just caused by preceeding events or can you freely choose what you are going to do?

"Hey, I did a post on dolphins. Guess loosey Goosey missed that 1.
"

Yes but that wasn't what i was asking. Do you hold animals (any animal) morally responsible for its actions?

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
So your actions and thoughts are just effects of preceeding causes... do you think rationality and free will can exist under these conditions?
Sure, why not?
Are your actions just caused by preceeding events or can you freely choose what you are going to do?
How many ways are you going to ask this question, until the answer changes?
Both.
Yes but that wasn't what i was asking. Do you hold animals (any animal) morally responsible for its actions?
Nope.
Not my species, not really my problem.

GooseHenry said...

RA

"So your actions and thoughts are just effects of preceeding causes... do you think rationality and free will can exist under these conditions?
Sure, why not?
Are your actions just caused by preceeding events or can you freely choose what you are going to do?
How many ways are you going to ask this question, until the answer changes?
Both."

Ok 1st you say everything can be explained by cause&effect, ie. every event is determined.

Then you say free will also exists, which means that free actions aren't determined by previous events.

"Yes but that wasn't what i was asking. Do you hold animals (any animal) morally responsible for its actions?
Nope.
Not my species, not really my problem."

So morals arise only in man then?...

Beowulf said...

Goose,

I think you have some good points; but I do think you should give RA a breather. It’s obvious that his patience has grown thin on this thread. He’s not going anywhere—so your going to get plenty more opportunities to learn about his thoughts on the issue. I am sure he would be willing to dialogue on free will vs. determinism (& morality) on another occasion, yet at this time, pushing the issue further now will only cause him to stand off more in the future. That’s at least from what I can tell thus far—I could be wrong as I have been on plenty of occasions.

Peace be with you my friend,

~bf

GooseHenry said...

Bf, RA

Yes, i am probably pushing this way beyond it's scope.

Later!

regards,

GH

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
Yes, i am probably pushing this way beyond it's scope.
Well, yeesh, you ask the same questions over & over again. You did this same M.O at the NGB. No matter how well you were answered, you just kept repeating the same questions ad nauseum.
I've got a long fuse, but everyone has limits.

GooseHenry said...

I apologize

say no to christ said...

Ra

I must have missed it when it was posted, but will look it up.

This debate gets old especially when you know for a FACT that social animals have many similar emotions and thoughts. Even rats(they are the extreme case of altruism) have a sense of empathy and even laugh when you tickle them. It is the biblical idea that god gave man dominion over animals and made man more special than four legged furry animals that has led to the abuse and inhumane deaths of many animals who were believed not to have any emotions, thoughts or feelings of their own. And that just is NOT the case! They absolutely share many and sometimes more emotions, thoughts and feelings than humans. I like to think of myself as just another animal on this earth and not a superior human. And
I am very happy with that thought. It is the ultimate spiritual high that one can never get when they seperate themselves from the animal and natural world.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Goose:
I apologize
De nada, mi amigo. Obliged.

SNTC:
It is the biblical idea that god gave man dominion over animals and made man more special than four legged furry animals that has led to the abuse and inhumane deaths of many animals who were believed not to have any emotions, thoughts or feelings of their own.
Very spot on.
We tend to be a speciocentric lot, don't we?

say no to christ said...

Ra said:"We tend to be a speciocentric lot, don't we?"


Absolutely and it is just stupid to do so. Believe it or not, it is the animals that teach us altruism. Rats will risk their lives across electrical grids to save not only their own babies but even baby birds and other animals small enough for them to carry. Rats are awesome teachers! And make great pets!

Amy

Krystalline Apostate said...

SNTC:
Rats will risk their lives across electrical grids to save not only their own babies but even baby birds and other animals small enough for them to carry.
What? I'm going to require a link on that 1. It sounds way out there (nothing personal).
It wouldn't surprise me, though.
It's a wild world we live in.