left biblioblography: Never Forget, Never Forgive

Tuesday, September 11, 2007

Never Forget, Never Forgive

It has been a year - how it flies. Today marks that deadly, Black Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001. The day that fingers of steel and fire came down from the skies, and shook the world as they tore apart a symbol of America's strength.

This taught us many, many things. But first and foremost, we learned that most painful of lessons: that religious fanatics need to be watched, and closely to boot.

Remember, remember, the 11th of September.

The dust shall never settle.

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18 comments:

niran said...

What unadulterated nonsense. 9 11 was a direct cause of the West's expansionist and interventionist foreign policy in the Middle East in particular, and more generally- all over the world. Islamic fundamentalism is the by product of the greed, selfishness and utter irresponsibility of the USA and its allies. I'm no fan of Islamic fundamentalism, but the sooner the West realises that it ought to stop trying to construct a global empire with a finger in every pie in every country in the world, perhaps then incidents like September 11 will not take place.

Krystalline Apostate said...

niran - I agree w/a great deal of what you say - US greed, irresponsibility, etc. But to deny the religious component is folly.
The madness of belief in an afterlife is illustrated down thru the ages, & this event was an agonizing punctuation mark of that belief.

niran said...

Look, suicide killings have been practiced even by those who don't believe in God or the afterlife. Islamic fundamentalism and the 'folly' of the virgins and the sea of wine will never be attractive to a Muslim populace who have no reason to hate the West. Religion, race, caste, skin colour etc have all been used to create division and breed extremism. It's human nature, nothing to do with the colour of your skin, the race you belong to, the religion you practice etc...I think we find some agreement here don't you think?

Krystalline Apostate said...

niran:
Look, suicide killings have been practiced even by those who don't believe in God or the afterlife.
Then name some. Even if you can, the differential between religious & non-religious is staggering.
Islamic fundamentalism and the 'folly' of the virgins and the sea of wine will never be attractive to a Muslim populace who have no reason to hate the West.
That's a valid point. However, belief in an afterlife has a less than beneficial effect for the most part, & leads people to commit insane acts.
Religion, race, caste, skin colour etc have all been used to create division and breed extremism.
Agreed for the most part, but that 1st 1, that's a major doozy. I'll grant you that xenophobia runs in our species (a little too wildly), but religion plays far too large a part in justifying the ugliness.
I think we find some agreement here don't you think?
Some, but not much.
Numbers don't lie.
Religion: it's gotta go.

Aaron Kinney said...

Re: niran,

What unadulterated nonsense.

I beg to differ!

9 11 was a direct cause of the West's expansionist and interventionist foreign policy in the Middle East in particular, and more generally- all over the world.

You are exactly correct. However, this statement is an argument in FAVOR of KA's post, not against it. US interventionist foreign policy is by and large motivated by religious convictions of the US's political leaders, especially in the middle east.

Islamic fundamentalism is the by product of the greed, selfishness and utter irresponsibility of the USA and its allies. I'm no fan of Islamic fundamentalism, but the sooner the West realises that it ought to stop trying to construct a global empire with a finger in every pie in every country in the world, perhaps then incidents like September 11 will not take place.

Again you are right, and again this is an argument FOR KA's post, not against it. Islamic fundamentalism has been agitated by Christian fundamentalism. The reason that the US gives Israel free military weapons, free money, and unlimited diplomatic support, is because the political leaders in the US literally believe that the Jews need to be in control of Jerusalem to usher in the second coming of Christ.

KA's post was not limited in scope only to Islamic fundies. Christians are included in the charge. And its well known across the world that these two (three if you count the Zionists/Jewish fundies) brands of religious fundamentalism incite each-other.

karen said...

I suspect there is enough hatred of the west that there could be found volunteers to fly into buildings even without the promise of virgins.

So yes, we should curb our meddling.

But would that stop the violence? No.
Because the religious fanatics believe they must bring the rest of the world to their way of thinking.

The Christians aggravate the Muslims who aggravate the Jews who aggravate the Muslims who aggravate the Christians. And they are ALL aggravating to us atheists, but we do not war over territory as Holy Land or prop up puppets as our governmental leaders.

More troops have died than civilians (in the original 9/11 attacks). Many, many more innocent Iraqis have died than all Americans involved. It is time to keep 9/11 as a touchstone in our memories, but to move on and rebuild. Time to get out of Iraq and let the Iraqis do as they will with their country.

And yes, it is always time to keep a watchful eye on religious fanatics--of any stripe.

niran said...

my apologies for not replying sooner.

"Then name some. Even if you can, the differential between religious & non-religious is staggering."

The LTTE in my country Sri Lanka routinely carries out suicide bombings and there's absolutely no religious motive there. Btw, they are also considered the modern masters of the "art" of suicide bombing. The Tigers are comprised of mominal Buddhists, Hindus and Christians and they are utterly secular in outlook. The kamikaze pilots were not religiously motivated either. There's more suicide attacks coming from the Middle East because suicide attacks are a tool used in asymmetrical warfare by the weaker party in a desperate situation and the middle East fits that bill perfectly. There's been a lot of research of suicide bombings in Sri lanka and its accepted widely that any type of brainwashing coupled with deep seated anger at injustice perpetrated against you can result in this phenomena.

"but religion plays far too large a part in justifying the ugliness"

Religion gives people one of millions of excuses for people to kill each other. If you leave religion out, you have skin colour, caste, class, place of birth etc etc left over. Religion does nothing to contribute to extra violence just as race and skin colour variations do not.


"US interventionist foreign policy is by and large motivated by religious convictions of the US's political leaders, especially in the middle east."

I thought it was oil and geopolitical strategic interest. Come on, the whole world knows what it's about. Don't be fooled. Alan Greenspan was honest enough to call a spade a spade. Google it up.

"Islamic fundamentalism has been agitated by Christian fundamentalism."

Actually, in Europe, Islamic fundamentalists has been agitated by secularists who want to stop Muslims from wearing veils, building mosques etc,,,


"The reason that the US gives Israel free military weapons, free money, and unlimited diplomatic support, is because the political leaders in the US literally believe that the Jews need to be in control of Jerusalem to usher in the second coming of Christ."

Bull shit. The reason Israel gets aid is because US foreign policy has a strategic interest in doling out weapons to Israel. The same way the US has strategic interest in doling out weapons to the most extreme Islamic of all states on Earth- Saudi Arabia.


"Time to get out of Iraq and let the Iraqis do as they will with their country."

Amen sister.

Krystalline Apostate said...

niran - I knew of the LTTE, & their POV. However, it's hard to claim that the kamikaze pilots weren't religiously motivated - the word translates to 'divine wind' after all.
If you leave religion out, you have skin colour, caste, class, place of birth etc etc left over.
True enough, but again, religion is the higher % of justification for most of these actions.
I thought it was oil and geopolitical strategic interest.
Some of it is.
We have a born-again President: he has a LOT bible studies at the White House. We have an independent mercenary group named Blackwater, who are all xtians, who answer to no 1. There's xtianity just fully OOZING outta our capital. We have Dominionists placed in key points in the govt. (150 of them, in fact). We have fundies like Falwell, Dobson, Robertson, who have direct lines to the WH.
& Iraq used to be Babylon.
So don't piss on my leg & tell me it's raining.
Actually, in Europe, Islamic fundamentalists has been agitated by secularists who want to stop Muslims from wearing veils, building mosques etc,,,
Yeah, they used to have carte blanch, too. Till 9/11, the Madrid bombings, the Muslim riots in Paris, the cartoon outrage in Denmark. Fatwas issued against Rushdie. 1 European director got killed because his film offended someone.
It's a 2 way street.
Bull shit. The reason Israel gets aid is because US foreign policy has a strategic interest in doling out weapons to Israel.
Again, missing the big picture. Sure, some of what you say is correct.
"A thousand years ago, everyone thought the world was going to end. It didn't. Years later, the countryside was robed in white churches" - Millennium.
We ignore the religious aspect at the peril of our species. It's dangerous, it's a hindrance, we've outgrown it.
We should put such childish things behind us.

niran said...

"However, it's hard to claim that the kamikaze pilots weren't religiously motivated - the word translates to 'divine wind' after all."

Let's not dance on the end of this needle. Japanese religious beliefs are complicated, but the Bushido code wasn't really carried on as a religious obligation as much as a code of honour - an inalienable part of Japanese culture regardless of the religion they practiced.

"True enough, but again, religion is the higher % of justification for most of these actions."

But the stated reason is not the true reason. That's why suicide bombings have been carried out by largely secular organizations as well. The percentage is higher because the percentage of religious people in the world is higher than the percentage of atheists and because most groups tend to rely on a religious imperative in fighting injustice and oppression - so that there is attempt to legitimise even the less savoury acts carried out in the pursuit of freedom through religion. Its simple really. Nothing to do with religion.

An analogy would be the killing of people in the name of capitalism or communism. These killings don't undermine the merits of the theories neither are they a result to be cautious of the theory itself. We need to be cautious about ourselves, not the theories that we subvert to justify killing.

"We have a born-again President: he has a LOT bible studies at the White House. We have an independent mercenary group named Blackwater, who are all xtians, who answer to no 1. There's xtianity just fully OOZING outta our capital. We have Dominionists placed in key points in the govt. (150 of them, in fact). We have fundies like Falwell, Dobson, Robertson, who have direct lines to the WH.
& Iraq used to be Babylon."

The whole world knows how Rove fooled stupid red necked American evangelicals to vote for Bush by portraying him to be this Christian saviour. But evangelicals weren't the only ones who voted for Bush and aren't going to be the only ones voting for Guiliani-whose policies are not much different to Bush's. Even Clinton was scarily interventionist -Kosovo, Somalia etc etc. Stay out of other people's business and other people's oil and don't be so greedy when you vote- that's what the world is telling the USA and they better be heeded.

"Again, missing the big picture. Sure, some of what you say is correct"

Again, why does the USA, who you say are run by evangelicals, pour money into Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Pakistan and Kuwait? It's the oil silly. Wake up and smell the oil- don't be fooled by this Karl Rove bullshit. Listen to Greenspan.

Krystalline Apostate said...

niran - I'm well aware of the implications of the oil, being as the economy of my country is centered around it.
That's why suicide bombings have been carried out by largely secular organizations as well.
You make it sound as if there's some equality in the equation, when there really isn't.
By & large, the religious berserkergang is far, FAR in the lead. I'd be will to bet bank that if folks abandoned this afterlife nonsense en masse, you'd see some drastic changes in the collective gestalt.
There's always a fringe in any large group. 'We can't escape the crazies' is certainly not a valid argument.
These killings don't undermine the merits of the theories neither are they a result to be cautious of the theory itself.
Ah, old Augustine: "1 should not judge a philosophy by its abuses."
Then, pray tell, what do we judge it by, but the abuses?

niran said...

"I'm well aware of the implications of the oil, being as the economy of my country is centered around it."

Then accept that American funding of Israel, Saudi Arabia et al and all its interventions in the Middle East have little to do with some stupid rednecks believing in Israel being the place the Messiah will appear and that it has everything to do with America's greed for power and oil.


" I'd be will to bet bank that if folks abandoned this afterlife nonsense en masse, you'd see some drastic changes in the collective gestalt."

No, that's a lie that's fed to you by Bill Oreilly and Rush Limbaugh and you're stupid to believe it. Whether the Middle Easterners were religious or not, America will continue to pump arms into the arms race in the Middle East, steal Middle Easterners oil, prop up undemocratic and illiberal regimes and try to interfere militarily when they don't get their way - all for oil. And as long as America does the above, Middle Easterners will look for a way to avenge the humiliation and injustice and kill as many Americans as possible, no matter what religion they believe.

Look, Christianitity and Judaism has never been the excuse for people to blow themselves up to kill others. This does not mean Christianity and Judaism are better or less violent than Islam. Or does it? By that token, the ideology of Tamil nationalism is only matched in its evilness by Islam. But you were the one who thought that what the Sinhala's were doing to Sri Lanka was seriously screwed up. Your logic is the Oreilly type favoured by crazies(Jews, Christians and atheists) who blame Islam for all of the world's woes. It's bullshit and the motive is to hide and mask America's role in creating the hatred it has incurred agaisnt it. The problem is not Islam, the problem is America.

niran said...

Btw, between 1980 and 2000, the PKK and the LTTE, both left of center nationalist, secular organisations had conducted more suicide attacks than other Islamic groups put together. After 2000, Iraq and the scary oppression by Israel together with the lull of bombings in Sri Lanka has changed the equation. So it's clear that your assertion that there's a greater proclivity to suicide attacks by religiously motivated groups is wrong. The 1980-2000 statistcs do not reflect this. here's a link of the stats froma renowned terrorism expert published in Jane's.

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/usscole/jir001020_1_n.shtml

Krystalline Apostate said...

niran:
Then accept that American funding of Israel, Saudi Arabia et al and all its interventions in the Middle East have little to do with some stupid rednecks believing in Israel being the place the Messiah will appear and that it has everything to do with America's greed for power and oil.
Ummm…no, we have a great many stupid rednecks in office, the commander-in-thief being tops among them. Oil has a great deal to do w/it, but Israel doesn’t even have oil as a major export – not even a member of OPEC. Iraq, Iran, yes indeedy.
No, that's a lie that's fed to you by Bill Oreilly and Rush Limbaugh and you're stupid to believe it.
Uhhh…dude, I don’t listen, nor can I STAND either of those 2 Rethuglican mouthpieces. & I refuse to even watch Faux Noise (Fox News). I dunno where you get all that blather, but that’s incredibly fucking wrong. Oliely & Rush Bimbo are both XTIANS, if you’d bother to go check.
Whether the Middle Easterners were religious or not, America will continue to pump arms into the arms race in the Middle East, steal Middle Easterners oil, prop up undemocratic and illiberal regimes and try to interfere militarily when they don't get their way - all for oil. And as long as America does the above, Middle Easterners will look for a way to avenge the humiliation and injustice and kill as many Americans as possible, no matter what religion they believe.
I agree w/a lotta that. It really doesn’t detract from my point, though.
People, whether they’re American or Arabian, will take advantage of a belief system that gives them a 2nd chance. Problem is, there’s no such thing as a 2nd chance: dead is dead, that’s the end of it.
Look, Christianitity and Judaism has never been the excuse for people to blow themselves up to kill others. This does not mean Christianity and Judaism are better or less violent than Islam. Or does it? By that token, the ideology of Tamil nationalism is only matched in its evilness by Islam. But you were the one who thought that what the Sinhala's were doing to Sri Lanka was seriously screwed up. Your logic is the Oreilly type favoured by crazies(Jews, Christians and atheists) who blame Islam for all of the world's woes. It's bullshit and the motive is to hide and mask America's role in creating the hatred it has incurred agaisnt it. The problem is not Islam, the problem is America.
Hey, my country’s got a lot of warts, I’ll grant you that. I think our foreign policy is insane. I think we play the World Police w/o an invitation: my govt. takes far too many liberties that were never granted in the 1st place. I’ll not hide any such thing, so thanks much for assuming far too much on far too little data.
I don’t blame Islam for all the world’s problems: that’s just batshit insane. I blame religion in general for a large variety of them, but not every damn thing.
(Had I the opportunity, I’d probably pop that oversized loudmouth a good 1 BTW: O’liely is a fucktard.)
I don’t know where you got most of that idiotic rant, but you by no means have me all figured out, so knock it the fuck off.
For the record, I think what the Sinhalese are doing to the Tamil is fucked up & wrong, but I don’t live there, so I’ll defer to your 1st-hand knowledge of the situation.
But that’s about all you know, as far as I can tell. That, & my country’s need for some SERIOUS reform.

niran said...

"Oil has a great deal to do w/it, but Israel doesn’t even have oil as a major export – not even a member of OPEC. Iraq, Iran, yes indeedy."

Of course Israel doesn't have oil, but a nuclear armed America friendly Israel helps the US keep a check on the other countries in the region. Its America's little outpost to further its geopolitical strategies in the region- nothing religious about it.


"Uhhh…dude, I don’t listen, nor can I STAND either of those 2 Rethuglican mouthpieces. & I refuse to even watch Faux Noise (Fox News). I dunno where you get all that blather, but that’s incredibly fucking wrong. Oliely & Rush Bimbo are both XTIANS, if you’d bother to go check. "

Yes. their reach extends to atheists even. You see Oreilly and Faux wants to convince you that if the Middle East were less Muslim, if they were less religiously fanatical and jihadist, that there would be less violence. You seem to buy the same nonsense when you say that if there were less religious influence, then there would be less violence. Also, if Christtians blow themselves up less than Muslims do, would you rather Middle Easterners became Christians than remain as Muslims?

"I agree w/a lotta that. It really doesn’t detract from my point, though"

So you do agree that the killing in the Middle East wouldn't have been any less if the natives were non Muslims or even atheists. But I remember you being the one who said that there would be less violence if people stopped believing in God. Sounds like a contradiction.

Btw, how come you have nothing to say abt the fact that upto the year 2000, secular groups carried out more suicide bombings than religious groups. The balance shifted becuase of the Iraq and the ceasefire in Sri Lanka. So, Kurdish nationalism and Tamil nationalism are bigger enemies of the world than Islam is huh? At least they were right upto 2000 AD!!???

Krystalline Apostate said...

Of course Israel doesn't have oil, but a nuclear armed America friendly Israel helps the US keep a check on the other countries in the region. Its America's little outpost to further its geopolitical strategies in the region- nothing religious about it.
Read your own bible, dude. Revelation? Armageddon? Whore of Babylon?
History backs my claim up.
Yes. their reach extends to atheists even. You see Oreilly and Faux wants to convince you that if the Middle East were less Muslim, if they were less religiously fanatical and jihadist, that there would be less violence. You seem to buy the same nonsense when you say that if there were less religious influence, then there would be less violence. Also, if Christtians blow themselves up less than Muslims do, would you rather Middle Easterners became Christians than remain as Muslims?
It ain’t nonsense. See the film ‘Obsession’ – it changed my POV. No, you obviously have no clue about me – or about Americans in general.
So you do agree that the killing in the Middle East wouldn't have been any less if the natives were non Muslims or even atheists. But I remember you being the one who said that there would be less violence if people stopped believing in God. Sounds like a contradiction.
Really, allegory has fucked up your thinking processes. That 1st sentence is idle speculation, unprovable. You’re twisting it all up (typically). ‘Lot’ is not the same thing as ‘all’.
Religion tends to stoke the fires of xenophobia, by creating an elitist mindset.
Btw, how come you have nothing to say abt the fact that upto the year 2000, secular groups carried out more suicide bombings than religious groups. The balance shifted becuase of the Iraq and the ceasefire in Sri Lanka. So, Kurdish nationalism and Tamil nationalism are bigger enemies of the world than Islam is huh? At least they were right upto 2000 AD!!???
Argument from silence, huh? All that tells me is that terrorism is an effective political tool.
Relgion itself is a form of terrorism.

niran said...

"Read your own bible, dude. Revelation? Armageddon? Whore of Babylon?"

Yeah but none of that proves that the reason America is meddling in the Middle East is because of some verses in Revelation. Those verses are used to dupe American rednecks - the real reason is oil and you know it. So does Greenspan and Bush and Rove.

"It ain’t nonsense. See the film ‘Obsession’ – it changed my POV. No, you obviously have no clue about me – or about Americans in general."

You continue to believe that religion causes the hatred against America to be magnified mate...and enjoy those movies...simple equation mate...no justice=no peace(religious instigators, reactionaries or otherwise)

"Religion tends to stoke the fires of xenophobia, by creating an elitist mindset."

Fucktard mantra. The elitist mindset already exists...among those who run the country that want to steal other people's oil and grab other people's land. The elitism is slowly crumbling along with the empire, and the world will be better for it.

"Argument from silence, huh? All that tells me is that terrorism is an effective political tool"

It should also tell you that you were wrong when you said seemed to think that religious people had a greater proclivity to blowing themselves up. Like I said, No justice=No peace. That's the real lesson of 9-11.

Krystalline Apostate said...

niran:
Yeah but none of that proves that the reason America is meddling in the Middle East is because of some verses in Revelation. Those verses are used to dupe American rednecks - the real reason is oil and you know it. So does Greenspan and Bush and Rove.
I know it’s about the oil, dufus. I’ve said as much. But denying the religious component is just plain nuts.
You continue to believe that religion causes the hatred against America to be magnified mate...and enjoy those movies...simple equation mate...no justice=no peace(religious instigators, reactionaries or otherwise)
No again. I’ve said as much about this as well. Really…you keep putting words in my mouth. PTUI! There, I’ve spit them out.
Fucktard mantra. The elitist mindset already exists...among those who run the country that want to steal other people's oil and grab other people's land. The elitism is slowly crumbling along with the empire, and the world will be better for it.
That was a generalization - this is getting old hat quickly. Yes, there IS an elitist mindset. There always has been, in every country, since the beginning of civilization. Religion’s been used to build those walls, like it or not.
It should also tell you that you were wrong when you said seemed to think that religious people had a greater proclivity to blowing themselves up. Like I said, No justice=No peace. That's the real lesson of 9-11.
And I quote:
But first and foremost, we learned that most painful of lessons: that religious fanatics need to be watched, and closely to boot.”
I didn’t say they had a greater proclivity. Then again, y’all seem to adore your martyrs. Regardless of whether they blow themselves up, or just blow up others (or shoot them, or lynch them, or any other come-hither insanity you hereafterians come up with).
Before you go off on 1 of your incoherent rants, take a good look. at the folks you’ve aligned yourself w/.

So again – knock it the fuck off. I’m not some tobacco-chewing redneck who rides in a beat-up pick-up truck, shooting at beer cans w/a .22. I don’t know where you get your info on Americans, but obviously you’ve lumped us all into 1 lump sum of idiots.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Oh, here's another post from last year, where I discussed how it WAS about the oil.
Your assumptions about my POV are rather stilted. No, actually, all fucked up is a better way of putting it.